Over the Gate

Gus · Joined: 14 Feb 2007 Posts: 147 Location: scottish borders

Lots of rod and line fisherman share your motivation for a catch. I'm not questioning the morality of your intentions to catch your own food; on the contrary, I share your enthusiasm for doing just that, and enjoy eating some of my catch.

However, you question the ethics of rod and line fishing fallaciously, when you state;

Justme · Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Pwllheli

I dint start the stone throwing (mind you neither did you).
I could buy my fish from the fish mongers but that would be supporting the catching of large numbers of fish that do get chucked back in dead by commercial trawlers. (which is madness its dead so bloody well use it for some thing & then try hard not to catch the wrong bloody ones / sizes in future). From your post you obviously know what you are doing when handling fish but I doubt most fishermen & women have those same skills any more than I do / dont. Your rant is sadly tipical of the posts on nearly all fishing forums when the subject of nets comes up. It affects your sport (or in your case your proffesion) so its bad. Currently it is legal in this country to fish in the sea with a net that meets the legal guidlines providing you follow the rules. You want to ban (or stop but it would take a ban to do so) one legal fishing activity to enhance another. Be carefull they will be after the sea rod fishers afterwards.

Richard
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Gus · Joined: 14 Feb 2007 Posts: 147 Location: scottish borders

You're missing the point of my post (or rant, as you put it), I think.

You're criticising the only method of fishing that the Marine Conversation Society, the Marine Stewardship Council, the WWF and Greenpeace unanimously agree is non-harmful to fish stocks. Not only that, but you're using some colourful language of the sort usually employed by ALF and PETA activists, to level your criticism.

And in the next breath, you're attempting to defend fishing methods that the MSC, MCS, WWF et al, universally denounce as indiscriminate, unsustainable, and damaging to fish stocks.

We can educate every rod and line fisherman on the globe, in skills that maximise survival rates of released fish, but there isn't an education programme in existence (nor will there ever be) that can lessen the damage caused by the indiscriminate fishing methods of which you are an exponent and defender.

Your position is untenable.
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BarryK · Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 192 Location: South Essex, UK

Gareth · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject:

what you cannot see in either of the two photos of the Pike that I have posted is the three layers of proper (wet) unhooking mats in the bottom of the boat.

I also absolutely point blank refuse to "Chin" a Pike of under 7lbs, as I have seen gills and rakers damaged by poor handling on fish of this size, which seem to be an awful lot more fiestier than the larger Pike.

Because of the height of the gunwhales on the boat assigned to us, standing up to return the fish was a necessity. Lee took that photo just as I stood up to place the fish back into the water. I say place, because I always hold on to a fish until I am sure it is strong enough to swim off unaided and strongly.

I have lost two fish in 10 years, both caught by another friend. The first was 7 years ago; the "Flat Jack" crushed almost as flat as a pancake by the jaws of a very large (50lb+) River Great Ouse Catfish, which attacked the Jack as it was being played. The second was two years ago on Wroxham Broad, when a 5lb Jack was snatched by another very large Pike just I released it...... sort of out of the frying pan and into the fire! :smt103
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Gus · Joined: 14 Feb 2007 Posts: 147 Location: scottish borders

In reply to Gareth and BarryK;

If you remove a fish of any size from the water to unhook/handle/photograph it, then you are damaging the suspensory ligaments, vascular tissues, and protective membranes that keep all its internal organs where they should be, and functioning as they were designed to. Fish are not designed (biologically speaking) to be lifted into the air for any length of time. This leaves the fish prone to shock, internal bleeding, and infection. I need to maintain a professional interest in ichthyology, and I'm fortunate to know three senior fisheries Biologists, one of whom I studied under at university, and all of whom gladly help me keep up to speed. If you learned your fish handling skills more than a decade ago, then it is highly unlikely that you would not be ignorant of the above information. Indeed, it has only been on the curriculum of assessment for members of my professional body for three years.

I too, have stood tits deep in freezing water for hours trying to revive fish that have been poorly handled by others. The fish apparently revive, and swim off with a reassuringly strong beat of their tail, but four hours later, you'll find (or possibly not) them floating belly up, in approximately 75% of cases. [TTGI fish mortality survey c2003] Mortality rates after four hours are less precise, but will bring the % mortality rate for fish handled in this way to approximately 80% (4 out of 5) within 24hrs. Although pike were not included among the species surveyed, their biology and morphology are not that different from any other species of predatory fish.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

It's illustrating a point I made to JM, in that anglers can be educated to handle fish safely, whereas gill nets cannot.

I'm not attacking Gareth, and I don't doubt his integrity or dedication to catch and release for a moment. When I used the word 'ignorance' I meant it literally, not as a derogatory slight. So, Gareth, my apologies to you if you felt that it was a personal attack.

BarryK- I couldn't find the patronising finger waving smiley to use, but right backatcha, mate.
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"Most people are on the world, not in it; have no conscious sympathy or relationship to anything about them, undiffused, separate, and rigidly alone like marbles of polished stone, touching but separate." - John Muir.

bodger · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:24 am Post subject:

As long as language is chosen carefully, this is just the sort of discusion that the the forum should be able to support.

To add my bit towards the debate.

I've used gill nets, been there done that. I did it because I looked upon it as a country skill that was there to be tried. I caught some fish that made beautiful eating but I also caught some that would have been released if I'd caught them on rod and line.
I doubt that I'd set them again, unless my livelyhood depended upon it. I'd much rather catch the fish on rod and line these days, infact I've always found it a more pleasurable method.
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Gareth · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject:

BarryK and I also keep some esteemed angling company. Including EA, and Thames water Authority fisheries Biologists, and a Broads Authority Governor, all of whom can be counted amongst our Pike fishing friends, along with a few other colourful characters.

Often I have experienced repeat Pike captures, for 5 years running (99-04) I captured the same male Pike from the same swim and on the same lure. On more than a few occasions I have caught the same Pike more than once during the same session, one notably stupid fish coming out four times in less than one hour to me; twice on lures, and twice on deadbait's. That same fish also came out a fortnight later to my son, and then a few weeks later to a friend. By and large, many Pike are repeat captures, sometimes being caught by several different anglers during the course of a season, These subsequent recaptures reinforces that correct handling as laid out by the Pike Anglers Club (PAC), and the Zander Anglers Club (ZAC) minimises stress, injury and damage to the fish. It is not always this picture of perfection that I have painted here, as casualties do occur, but it is my experience that these are a by-product of inexperienced, ill equipped or uncaring anglers. One of the Pike fishing techniques that I used to employ was to cast and work an un weighted soft rubber lure along a stretch of river or lake bank that had recently hosted a silver fish match. The causalities that these matches can inflict upon a fish population can sometimes seem to be horrendous. With dead, dying, injured, and damaged fish becoming a natural homing beacon for the predators and scavengers; an obvious area for me to be casting lures about in.
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