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Crow-wing

Old English Game Fowl

Iíve been fond of poultry for a lifelong. Through that time I have kept different fancy breeds, game fowl breeds and pheasants as well. A breed Iíve always found very interesting due to its long history and many varieties is the Old English Game, the Oxford type in particular, which I had the chance to keep until some years ago.

Iím currently living in Mexico but all the game fowls you can find here are of the American type. However Iíve been making a deep research on the breed and I found that through its history has existed some exchange of blood between the UK and America in both ways, after the first English/Irish game fowl were established in America.

This fact makes me wonder if itís possible to breed American game fowl towards the Oxford Standard and in the long term consider them Oxford OEG. I will greatly appreciate the opinion and/or advice of British breeders in the forum regarding this issue.

Please find attached a couple of photos of our Silver Duckwing hens (wheaten type). I was planning to start the project with this old strain.


debbie

They are beautiful looking birds you have there crow-wing.

Welcome to the forums by the way - I am not much of a purest myself as far as chickens are concerned (pigs are my thing) but some on this forum are so I am sure someone will be along shortly with their take on your idea
bodger

Our duckwing males are the same colour but the females for the American and the English duckwing differ vastly. Here's the typical colour for an Oxford duckwing female. The chicks are Light Sussex.




Crow-wing

Debbie: thanks for the compliments and the warm welcome.

Bodger: many thanks for the picture, your hen looks very good.

In America (Mexico as well) we also have Silver Duckwing hens like the one you posted. Those are partridge-bred. The ones I posted are wheaten-bred. The only difference with the Light Reds is that these ones carry the silver gene. Hope I explain myself.

I can say that 50% of the Silver Duckwings over here are partridge-bred and the other 50% wheaten-bred. Regarding the males, yes they are ďalmostĒ identical.

Any comments regarding breeding towards the Oxford Standard? I will love to see more pictures of typical OEG fowl if possible.
debbie

They do look like really nice deep breasted birds
bodger

We did have many wheaton Oxfords but they more or less died out decades ago. There are moves a foot to bring them back by the use of American blood.
Crow-wing

Itís interesting to hear that some breeders are bringing back the wheaten colour using American blood. This fact contributes to answer my inquiry to a certain point. I would like to hear any other points of view.
_
bodger

Here in the UK, all the Oxford Light Red cocks are from Partridge hens, although historicaly the hen for this colour was wheaton. Any whaeton hens that you see have a good proportion of American blood coursing through their veins.
chickenstu

Crow Wing- you could cause more trouble than Pandora openning that box!!!

In short- yes.

But there are guys on your side of the pond that already have such fowls- I will pm you there details so you can speak to them
Crow-wing

Bodger: Yes, wheaten hens are very common among the ďmodernĒ strains of American fowl. Iím attaching pictures of a wheaten and a partridge hen of the strains we keep. You can see they are more ďAmericanĒ in type and peacombed, thatís why I choose the old Duckwing strain.

Chickenstu:
LolÖ it was just an innocent questionÖ
I greatly appreciate your help.



sapphire

Lovely hens. Ive got a wheaten oeg bantam,
Crow-wing

Thank you sapphire.

Regarding PMs, I got this message: "You have not posted enough to be allowed to send private messages."
Does anybody knows how many posts are required before using the PMs? Thanks.
tornado

They are nice looking chickens.
tornado

I have just joined so I don't know myself.
bodger

Ten.
All new members need to have made ten suitable posts before having the PM facility. This is simply a common sense measure to stop spammers and near do wells.
Crow-wing

Thanks Tornado and wellcome.

Bodger, thanks for the information.
Aussie

I am only new to OEG and I have Large Creels and Partridge Bred Black Reds.

Now over here in Australia there is always arguments about Oxford v Carlisle v American Game.

When people ask me what type of OEG I have I tell them Atkinson Type. I know this isn't the correct answer to give but it saves a lot of arguments and people will know straight away what type my OEG follow.

I have a very good mentor who has a lot of literature on Hebert Atkinson and he tells me all the time we ( we as in he and I ) have the true Oxford OEG.

It would be good to talk to other people outside of Australia to get their views on this.

My first pair of Large OEG Creel




My first pair of Partridge Bred Black Reds



chickenstu

Aussie-are they Pengeli (spelling??) line?
Aussie

Yes, the Patridge Bred Black Reds are pure Athol Pengilly Blood.
Aussie

Here is another Partridge Hen and Creel Cock



chickenstu

Aussie- I keep both Oxford type and Carlsile type OEG. To me and from from I have read about OEG in Australia - the Athol birds would be more to the Carlisle type, but before they were ruined over here by misguided breeders. I would really like my Carlisle birds to look more like the ones you have- they have superb tails and do not look to exagerated.
bodger

Hi Dan.
The Creles are more to my liking than the Light Reds. The latter are rather too short in the back and lean towards the Carlisle type.  
Aussie

Chickenstu, what country are you located in. Also, can you please post a photo of your Oxford and Carlisle OEG please.

Breeds differ in type from one country to another. When i lived in America I went to a poultry show and I tell you not many of the breeds that were over there which are available here would fit our standard.

When I saw their OEG Bantams I thought they were Japanese or Chabo bantams.
bodger

So are you an Aussie or a Yank Dan ?
Aussie

Im an Aussie, i moved over to America in 2001 and came back home in 2006.
Aussie

If you would like to see some more pictures of OEG here in Australia go to my forum gallery here http://www.exhibitionpoultryforum.com/gallery/album.php?album_id=46


Not all OEG photos listed under my name are mine, only the ones i have posted above. My son has OEG Bantams also.
bodger

One of my Light Reds.









If I remember rightly, I think that I ended up giving him to Stu.
Aussie

He looks like a nice Black Red Light Leg. Pity he is crowing though as it makes it hard to compare him to the OEG we have here.
bodger

Don't your birds crow there ?

Here he is again, he wasn't really my sort, thats why I gave him away.









I like even more back on them.
Aussie

Unlike most OEG breeders here in Australia i refuse to get caught up in the Oxford v Carlisle v American Game Debate.

I feel the OEG Fowl that i have represents Atkinsons Plates and I will stick to my type. If others think they have OEG that represents Atkinson Plates well that may be so also.

All written standards on any breed in any country would be left open to ones own interpretation so how do you know who is right and who is wrong.
Aussie

Here is a photo of my sons OEG Grey Bantam Cockerel


bodger

Oxfords were originally bred for the pit and Carlisles were 'mainly' from Oxford type fowl for the show pen. They are now like chalk and cheese, so great is the physical difference.
Aussie

What style would you call these OEG
http://oxfordoldenglishgame.com/index.php?p=1_7
bodger

Variable but they exhibit a huge American influence. Massive luxuriant tail feathers.
Aussie

Yes, I feel they are more American Game but that group call them Oxfords.

I feel the type i have to be true Oxfords. From the photos i have seen Carlisles have a longer back.
bodger

Carlisles, proportionally have shorter backs than Oxfords.
aseel

oxfords

hey bodger do you still have that line of light red tassels
bodger

They were Milner bred and no I haven't mate.
chickenstu






Aussie- Some of my Carlisles- Oxfords to follow
bodger

He's in bed Stu.
chickenstu



one more carlisle -a muff







Crow-wing

Aussie, thanks for posting you birds. Calling them ďAtkinsonĒ type could be correct as you follow his paintings as their standard. Your Creels look like Atkinsonís ideal and I like them, but I think Stu is right and your Light Reds lean more to the Carlisle type.

I totally agree with you that it is pointless to get into the American v. Oxford v. Carlisle debate, specially nowadays that most breeders know which is which and what they like is what they should breed.

I will just add, after looking at the OEG bred in Australia, that many of them fall between the Oxford and the Carlisle types (like your Creels), so there will be a 4th type within what I will call the OEG FOWL SPECTRUM.

Iím posting below a couple of my American games or American-bred OEG, as nowadays some in UK will recognize them as such. This is the type I breed as THIS IS THE ONE I LIKE however I would have no problems in breeding them with a slightly shorter plumage like some do in UK. You can see these roosters (like my hens posted first) are very athletic looking but long in feather so they represent one side of the SPECTRUM completely opposite to the other side, the Carlisle.

I feel that this thread, in just a few posts, has shown pretty well the current condition of the OEG Fowl breed, without the need of getting to the usual point of discussing who is right, plus it is very well illustrated by our pics and those from Bodger (the ones of the Light Red are top quality pics) and the nice collection from Stu.

However, Bodger I will greatly appreciate if you could post some more pics of your Oxfords, the ones which are your sort. Iím sure they will be a good example of the type between my birds and those posted by Stu.

Javier

Bodger, over here roosters crow too  


Aussie

bodger wrote:
Don't your birds crow there ?


Sometimes I wish they didn't Bodger. It is because of this reason  local councils are coming down hard on people who keep poultry. Exhibition Poultry will slowly die here in Australia because of this.
Crow-wing

I'm sorry to hear that... I love the sound of roosters crowing in the morning... music to my ears †




___
Crow-wing

Aussie, you should be sleeping at this time... don't you?




___
Aussie

These are the same Creels in my first post as they were walking around the yard.


nigelhughes7

I will keep my mouth shut on this one   I would agree there are 4 types though
Aussie

By all means Nigel, join in. If you feel there is 4 types please show us what you mean. Post photos of all 4 types and let us compare them.

This is the first OEG discussion where it has not turned in to a big argument about who is right and who is wrong. If we can keep it that way I feel that those people that do not know the difference may actually get a chance to learn with out the thread getting locked.
Aussie

What type of OEG in Britain are covered by the British Poultry Standards.

And what type of OEG in Britain resembles Atkinsons Plates.

How many OEG Clubs are in Britain and do they have a website so i can have a look.
Crow-wing

Aussie wrote:
By all means Nigel, join in. If you feel there is 4 types please show us what you mean. Post photos of all 4 types and let us compare them.


Aussie, the 4 types I talked about is just my personal view... there is nothing written about it.

1. American Game Fowl or American-bred OEG Fowl
2. Oxford OEG Fowl or English-bred OEG Fowl
3. Australian OEG Fowl (like your Creels)
4. Carlisle OEG Fowl

Note: some people nowadays will say that 1 and 2 are the same, and some people will say that 3 and 4 are almost the same.

Of course, I talked also about the OEG SPECTRUM because you can find in between types.

You can find photos of them here but probably Bodger can add some more good ones of his Oxfords.

____
bodger

Aussie wrote:
What type of OEG in Britain are covered by the British Poultry Standards.

And what type of OEG in Britain resembles Atkinsons Plates.

How many OEG Clubs are in Britain and do they have a website so i can have a look.


Whatever the birds covered by the British Poultry Standards are doesn't really matter, because they aren't and never have been the guardians of the Oxford OEG. Oxfords are so specialised that having an ordinary hard feather judge to judge them is an absolute joke. It takes some people a life time to understand them and even then, they might no nothing.

There aren't really any Oxfords that closely resemble the birds from the Atkinson prints, because those images are in the main extremely stylised and exagerated.

There are three main clubs that cater for the Oxford game type birds. Thats the Oxford. the Midland and the west of England. None of them have a website.
borrisbamf

i'll try to put some pics of my birds on and you can tell me what they are [IMG]http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu238/borrisbamf/gamebirds2011018.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu238/borrisbamf/021.jpg[/IMG]
Aussie

They didn't work Borris

To get them to display remove the [IMG] and [/IMG] code and it will work.
borrisbamf

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu238/borrisbamf/021.jpg
http://i651.photobucket.com/album...8/borrisbamf/gamebirds2011018.jpg
Crow-wing

borrisbamf wrote:
i'll try to put some pics of my birds on and you can tell me what they are [/IMG]


Borris, the Black one nowadays I think will be classified as an Atkinson type OEG, I mean between the Oxford and the Carlisle and using Aussie's definition. The Red Dun probably the same thing but leaning more to the Carlisle type.
I would like to hear the opinion of breeders in UK acquainted with the birds currently winning at the different shows.
bodger

Well ?




Aussie

That Duckwing I would class as Atkinson Type OEG.

It looks similar to this one
http://www.exhibitionpoultryforum....php?album_id=46&image_id=355
Crow-wing

Bodger, you have some nice OEG Fowls too... just one pic? Please make my day. I will say it's an Oxford.

Aussie, the Silver Duckwing you are comparing with though similar to what you call an Atkinson type leans more to the Carlisle. Not similar birds IMHO.



___
bodger

IMO, there's never been any such thing as an Atkinson type bird. The Atkinson pictures are simply stylised approximations.

I've seen photographs of the actual birds that he drew in his paintings and they are nothing like.

I've also got birds here that are supposedly of Atkinsons strain and again, they are nothing like the birds in his pictures.

The DW is of British breeding. Its a straight cross of a Milner bred bird onto a North Britain White Hackle. OEG ? Yes but Atkinson type ? Going from the paintings, I've got to say nothing like.

Aussie. The bird in your link is short backed and short necked and only going from the photo of course but its nothing like the bird in my picture.
Aussie

Atkinsons Duckwings


Bodgers Duckwing



Looks similar to me.
bodger

Same colour.
Aussie

I think it may be the photo that gives it the appearance of a short back. He has a good flow of hackle which covers his shoulders which would make it look like it has a short back.
Crow-wing

bodger wrote:
IMO, there's never been any such thing as an Atkinson type bird. The Atkinson pictures are simply stylised approximations.

I've seen photographs of the actual birds that he drew in his paintings and they are nothing like.

I've also got birds here that are supposedly of Atkinsons strain and again, they are nothing like the birds in his pictures.

The DW is of British breeding. Its a straight cross of a Milner bred bird onto a North Britain White Hackle. OEG ? Yes but Atkinson type ? Going from the paintings, I've got to say nothing like.

Aussie. The bird in your link is short backed and short necked and only going from the photo of course but its nothing like the bird in my picture.


Bodger, just a clarification about the term Atkinson type.

Yes, there has never been an Atkinson type bird as a classification, Aussie brought that TERM to describe his birds, so we are using it in this thread to describe the birds bred using Atkinson's paintings as a standard, which will be a halfway between the Oxford and the Carlisle types.


___
Aussie

I know that there is no such thing as Atkinson Type of OEG. I use that term only to convey to others here in Australia what my OEG are. That way I don't get caught up in the Oxford v Carlisle v American Game debate.

The OEG Fowl Club of Australia uses Atkinsons Plates as their ideals. That is the reason I use the term Atkinson Type.
sapphire

chickenstu wrote:





Aussie- Some of my Carlisles- Oxfords to follow



Lovely pics of lovely birds Chickenstu  
borrisbamf

I've taken two of mine to a show today and put them in the oxford class, See if the judge knows what he's doing. I understand what you say Bodger about the judges though.
nigelhughes7

interesting the phot I have seen of the woegc show was a duckwing with a very luxurious tail
Pearl Eye

bodger, do you classify the duckwing hen as oxford? Any idea on the line shes from?
  What type does everyone consider these two






bodger

bodger wrote:
Our duckwing males are the same colour but the females for the American and the English duckwing differ vastly. Here's the typical colour for an Oxford duckwing female. The chicks are Light Sussex.







This duckwing of mine has a lot of Ted Milner blood in it.

Thats bird of yours is Oxford type Pearl Eye.
Pearl Eye

well that makes me happy to here. The bottom fowl is a different bird, much better than the photo actually but unfortunatelly lost him.
The duckwing hen is almost identical  to a few lines ive seen out here.
nigelhughes7

Aussie I have just finished reading some 100 copies of the Gazette an australlian publication where the debate of whats a true Oxford was raging some 20 plus years ago where you have Australlian experts claiming the trueoxford was the  American type and the Show type (Oxford ) was wrong and inferior and also the carlisle and the Australlian pit type.. The debates going on over here now I have reports of Ralph Berman walking past Oxfords with pea combs and the chap saying that they were far better than the oxford type . Have you any photos of whats winning at the shows now ??? are they a blended bird ?? do they favour the american or the Oxford type ??
Pearl Eye

nigel, im from australia so will answer. The link daniel (aussie) posted shows the type usually winning the shows. Theres some crossover out here in my opinion. Many of the australian  pits are essentially carlisle OE but theres still proper pits as well.  It just depends what show and whos judging with the oeg. Ive also got alot of the old chicken chats but its complicated. You would of seen Norm Goodwin and Bill Unsworth arguing against the american fowl in there. Goodwin was mentioned to me by a man who has winners on the oxford site as a breeder of top quality oxfords. Some of the birds of Unsworth in those magazines are terrible but he also bred the duckwing in the royal fowl which is said to be the proper type and in my opinion a fantastic fowl.
Aussie

I have every copy of chicken chat pearl eye so if you make reference to them can you please tell me what volume and number so i can read up on it.

I will be reproducing a lot of the articles in chicken chat for the exhibition poultry magazine so if you know any articles that would be of benefit to readers let me know.
Pearl Eye

I just checked and the ones im referencing is the fanciers gazette. They have a few old articles from compton. If you can use them daniel let me know.
Taffy

Pearl Eye wrote:
bodger, do you classify the duckwing hen as oxford? Any idea on the line shes from?
† What type does everyone consider these two






looking at the cock birds face colour would not be suprised if he gets a heart attack
nigelhughes7

I have seen unsworths birds and his resignation letter but honestly the photos I have seen show a very asil type tail on his birds I realise he had been line breeding for 40 years , the you had penguilly and some crazy letters he sent to the gazette .. I Wonder where he had his original stock from nothing else like it shows up in Ozz at the time he started showing them .
Pearl Eye

and thats exactly what i mean nigel. Have you seen the duckwing in the royal fowl? All ive heard of penguilly is he got fowls from everywhere
bodger

A man called Penguilly was one of only two people in the long and illustrious history of the The Midland Old English Game Fowl Club to be denied Membership.
Aussie

Why was he denied membership.
bodger

His practice of putting non game blood into the mix of his birds.
Aussie

Are we talking about Athol Pengilly here in Australia.
bodger

I don't know about the christian name, but the pronunciation of the surname varied slightly from the spelling. The guy concened was certainly Australian.
Pearl Eye

do you know who else they denied and why?
bodger

Yes and but can't say, because it wasn't for bird related reasons.
Pearl Eye

the only thing ive heard said about crossing outside of the spectrum by penguilly was with campine to get the barring on gingers females. Considering theres no barred ginger females shown in australia and athol used hulsey fowl to breed his gingers (they follow that colour) i strongly doubt he did it. Theres a DVD by athol that ive seen and personally i dont like the birds, there fairly round and overdone for me but in his defence i will say this. The birds winning before him were tutty fowl and awful. A fair chunk of those fowl were imported from fice at oxford, carried a lot of assel and by the looks of pictures turned to dirt fairly quickly. Athol, in my opinion was trying to breed to the atkinson greys that were said to be the ideal. To me wrong picture and i dont honestly think any off his fowl would of moved like atkinson or acted liked atkinson but he didnt have the internet to compare or communicate on. The fact he tryed to get info from oxford clubs says to me he was trying. If he added anything else, some more informed than me may know. As i said im not into them but i can see were he may have went off course
bodger

Thats as much as I know but what I will say, is that IMO, any bird thats had non game blood put into it isn't worth a light and neither are any subsequent off spring derived from it.

If you look at an Oxford Game Club schedule, you'll see that it states that 'Colour is for classification only' I firmly believe that this is a good thing. People who want to nit pick about feather colouration are in my view, keeping the wrong birds.
Pearl Eye

completely agree, obsession with black faces is a big problem out here.
I must say researching english oxfords there seems a fairly large range on the "spectrum" with a lot of birds i wouldnt have thought would be seen as oxford.
Aussie

The photo of this fowl was taken about 30 years ago. It is Tutty bred





I have been told that this ts the bird Athol used to create his line of Black Reds.

I will give a mate of mine a call who knew Athol for 30 years or more. It was he who gave me that photo.
bodger

On first glance, you'd say it looks alright but then when you look at it, you start to think " well its a little short in the back and those tail hangers are a strange, where did those come from? "
Its difficult to judge from a photo, because as I'm sure you know, the judging of a game bird is mostly in the hand and how it feels.
Crow-wing

nigelhughes7 wrote:
Aussie I have just finished reading some 100 copies of the Gazette an australlian publication where the debate of whats a true Oxford was raging some 20 plus years ago where you have Australlian experts claiming the trueoxford was the †American type and the Show type (Oxford ) was wrong and inferior and also the carlisle and the Australlian pit type.. The debates going on over here now I have reports of Ralph Berman walking past Oxfords with pea combs and the chap saying that they were far better than the oxford type . Have you any photos of whats winning at the shows now ??? are they a blended bird ?? do they favour the american or the Oxford type ??


As far as I know in Australia there are two types of OEG fowl:

1. American bloodlines which are known there as Oxford OEG fowl and are recognized by one or two specialized breed clubs.
2. Australian-bred OEG fowl, bred towards the Atkinsonís paintings as the standard and are a midway between the Oxford and Carlisle types bred in UK (or in many cases nearly Carlisle type). I understand this is the type recognized by the APC.

Iím sure some Australian members here can give us much precise information.

____
Crow-wing

Pearl Eye wrote:
† What type does everyone consider these two


I agree with Bodger that the first one will fall under the Oxford type. It looks good in the picture showing itís front. Pearl Eye can you give some details about its breeding? It seems that there are not many OEG fowl of this type in Australia.

The second one, though the picture is not good, looks more like a typical Australian bred OEG.



_________
Crow-wing

Aussie wrote:
The photo of this fowl was taken about 30 years ago. It is Tutty bred

I have been told that this ts the bird Athol used to create his line of Black Reds.


I agree again with Bodger that itís a short back fowl and will add that itís somewhat broad in the breastÖ and yes the long sickles are rare in a bird of such type. Probably some American blood in it over Australian bred OEG.
bodger

or Yokahama !
Crow-wing

bodger wrote:
His practice of putting non game blood into the mix of his birds.


Good point Bodger...  
Pearl Eye

the black red shown is not at all like the tutty type fowls im familiar with.
Crow wing, most of the oxford are american type, accepted by the club as the true type of OE. Most of the birds shown as OE in australia are of the type you describe. I would add theres the full spectrum here from american to carlisle, with all the types inbetween.
The †birds of mine are both related as im trying to make a line of english oxford type, something that in my opinion theres not a lot of out here.
The 2nd bird (its not a good picture) handled much better than the first cock. He was shown twice, didnt win but some of the old guys liked him a lot. First ones 4lbs 6 second one a litte under 5lb
bodger, have you got anymore pictures to put up, always interested to see the english fowl
Taffy

bodger wrote:
Don't your birds crow there ?

Here he is again, he wasn't really my sort, thats why I gave him away.









I like even more back on them.


milner bred if i am right john nasty too
Taffy

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums...510353_5998579_n.jpg?t=1299360784
desperatedan

atkinson print of orange reds and a photo of one of my orange red,not far out .

Crow-wing

Pearl Eye: thanks for the additional information. Your breeding program sounds interesting and reasonable as it seems there are not many OEG fowl of the English Oxford type in Australia, I mean birds between the American type and the Australian type.

Taffy: Bodgerís light red as he said was not of his favorites, probably because it shows some Asil features, like head and short beak, however itís an excellent picture.
The Duckwing you posted looks sound and well proportioned. Can you give some information about its breeding?



____
Crow-wing

desperatedan wrote:
atkinson print of orange reds and a photo of one of my orange red,not far out .


Dan: thanks for the excellent picture, very typical Oxford OEG fowl, IMHO. Orange Reds are among my favorites, do you have any pictures of the hens of this same strain?

Below a stag of my Orange Red Peruvian Gamefowl. The origin of this breed is based on large Oriental game fowl but has received a good proportion of English game blood through its history hence the orange red colour in this strain.


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